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The Untold History Of Bitcoin That You Need To Know | Cashflow Hacking Ep #8 Eric Jansen

Eric Jansen

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The Untold History Of Bitcoin That You Need To Know | Cashflow Hacking Ep #8 Eric Jansen

Eric Jansen, the founder and Cheif Investment Officer of AspenCross Wealth Management joins us on the podcast to discuss the lesser known history of Bitcoin, and how investors can capitalize on the cryptocurrency market to further enhance their income in retirement. As the founder of AspenCross Wealth Management, Eric has a long history of helping clients to redefine their financial planning solutions by staying one step ahead in this era of digital transformation, and now shares his advice to help you do the same.

 Video Version Of The Podcast

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Podcast Transcript

Intro: 00:11

This is the Finance & Markets Cashflow Hacking Podcast. Streaming to you live. Teaching the methods behind unlocking long-term wealth. Your host Casey Stubbs.

Casey Stubbs: 00:25

Hello, this is Casey Stubbs from cash flow hacking podcast with Finance and Markets and today we’re here with Eric Johnson from Aspen Cross Wealth Management, a registered wealth management company. Thank you for the show Eric.

Eric Jansen: 00:45

Well, thanks for the invite Casey, and I look forward to chatting with you and your audience today.

Casey Stubbs: 00:52

Excellent. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Eric Jansen: 00:55

Sure. And so I’ve been in the financial services industry, the financial advice industry, I guess for a little over 30 years now, uh, spent most of that time, uh, in the investment management side of things, helping clients build and manage portfolios. And just recently, uh, our firm became a registered investment advisor and we’ve been spending more and more time answering client’s questions about, as you might expect Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

Casey Stubbs: 01:26

That’s pretty, pretty good because a lot of the financial planners have not really tackled that. So it’s good that you’re jumping on it first or right away, but I did want to mention during our discussion today that so all of our viewers understand that this is educational, um, information only and it is not to be considered investment advice. Uh, so Eric, uh, how did you get started with your interest in Bitcoin?

Eric Jansen: 01:58

Yeah. Great. Great question. Uh, I guess the first thing I’ll say is I wish I got interested at far sooner than I did. Uh, but, uh, you know, I think many of us heard about bitcoin over the years and, uh, I think like most folks when I first heard about it early on in 2010 or 11 or 12, I paid very little attention to it and so it really wasn’t until the middle of last year when I think I read an article or something somewhere that kind of piqued my interest and I started to explore it, made my first a bitcoin purchasing. I think it was July of last year. And from that point forward, how I began to read everything I could possibly read about Bitcoin and Blockchain. Uh, I began attending a bunch of conventions, uh, and, and really just trying to pick people’s brains on what the heck is this thing and you know, why should I care?

Casey Stubbs: 02:57

And so as you have been reading and studying, do you feel like you have a pretty good handle on the cryptocurrency market right now?

Eric Jansen: 03:07

Well, what’s interesting about this whole marketplace is that as the minute you think, you know, you know a lot about it, you realize there’s so much more than that you need to know. But uh, I think the best way to learn as, at least from my experiences to really just get involved, you know, read as much as you can, talk to folks how, um, and don’t just listen to what you, what you hear,

Casey Stubbs: 03:34

Right! just don’t believe everything you hear. Actually do your own research and so you can get, make a decision based on what you’re actually learning.

Eric Jansen: 03:34

Absolutely.

Casey Stubbs: 03:42

I think that’s a really important point. Now, I hear a lot about Blockchain Technology and how that’s really important, an important part of the cryptocurrency element. Now, can you, do you know anything about Blockchain Technology? What is in, could you explain that to the listeners?

How To Invest In Cryptocurrency

Eric Jansen: 04:05

Sure. Uh, so Blockchain, uh, you know, that’s a, I guess a new word for many of us and it’s the platform, if you will, or the software technology that Bitcoin is built upon. And so what is Blockchain? And I think the best way to describe Blockchain is to compare it to something maybe that we all know, right?, like a file sharing program or an excel spreadsheet. And so really what, what Blockchain is then, is it’s essentially a distributed shared ledger or spreadsheet, um, that anybody can view. Um, it’s an internet based program. Um, and so Blockchain Technologies used to transact Bitcoin and now it’s also used for many other things that we can talk about as well.

Casey Stubbs: 04:53

OK. So what makes it different than anything that like, so for example, credit card processing, why, why is block chain so interesting and why are so many companies investing in this Blockchain Technology?

Eric Jansen: 05:07

Yeah, it’s a great question. Right? And so if, if we say it’s a shared ledger that anybody in the world with the Internet connection to act can access it, that really doesn’t explain, I guess, in, in the right way. Well, what does that really have to do with, with, with Bitcoin, right? And I think the key thing there that is important to understand is that Blockchain also includes this cryptographic function, if you will. Meaning that what really made Bitcoin, Bitcoin, was the ability for anyone to be able to transact, make a transaction with anybody else in the world without any, you know, trusted intermediary. And how that really is possible is by adding these cryptographic features, if you will, um, securing the data that is within the Blockchain. And so that is really what makes Blockchain so unique, is that for the first time ever, you can have this trustless network where you can engage in transactions and ah, other uses for, for storing data without having to use that central intermediary. And that’s all done through cryptography.

Casey Stubbs: 06:28

OK? Now. I’m, I like that idea of like a person to person payment without an intermediary. However, I do some bitcoin stuff myself, I still have to have that intermediary like I have my, my Coinbase account, which is like a wallet. Um, so I’m still dependent on an intermediary, right?

Why Was Bitcoin Created

Eric Jansen: 06:51

Well, I think what you’re describing there is how you’re holding your Bitcoin, if you will. Right? And so your, your, uh, your Bitcoin itself. So if you have Bitcoin. Bitcoin is actually not, even that it’s actually held at coin base or into the other exchanges. Uh, it’s, it’s kind of a confusing, you know, misnomer and maybe I’ll spend a minute on that and then we can go back to the original question that when you have a wallet for bitcoin highest price, right, people talk about having a Bitcoin wallet on Coinbase or another exchange. The only thing that’s really in that wallet is a series of, of characters, right?

Eric Jansen: 07:25

That identify, you know, your, um, I guess in a sense it’s like a password that you have right in that password or key is your way that you can prove that you have a certain amount of Bitcoin on that ledger. Right? And so the ledger itself, if you think about what a ledger is, is just, uh, a database where you record, uh, who owns what. And so inside that wallet is just the key that unlocks your, your cell on that ledger, if you will, that contains your, um, your Bitcoin, right? Um, and so, you know, I think that’s one of the most important things for folks to understand. And we can talk about security a little bit later on.

Casey Stubbs: 08:18

OK. So how does the actual transaction take place?

Eric Jansen: 08:21

Yeah. So, so, so what coin base then and exchanges like that, that’s really you know, you saying, Hey, look, I don’t want to hold my private key, which is like a password because I’m afraid I might lose it and if I lose it, you in fact, do you lose your, your Bitcoin? And so coin base and exchanges like Coinbase will hold those keys for you. However, you can also hold your own keys, but you’re regardless when you are sending a Bitcoin, if you will, to somebody else or use as an example, um, that sending of that Bitcoin does not really require an intermediary. You’re simply making a a notification if you will, right? If I hit send on my coin base app, then I’m really notifying the Blockchain that I would like to send x amount of Bitcoins to somebody else. And when that happens, that’s when this whole concept of mining starts to occur, right? Where the computers who are on the Bitcoin network who have agreed to perform this function will now make sure that I actually have those coins that I want to stand or a portion of the coin and confirm that it’s a valid address that I’m sending it to. And so in the end there really is no intermediary when I’m transacting a, it’s really all done by those miners who are participating in that, in that effort. So it’s not Coinbase, it’s the miners.

Casey Stubbs: 09:58

Now Coinbase does have a way to tie into the Blockchain though, like, so there has to be some kind of access to this Blockchain networks at some, some level.

Eric Jansen: 10:08

Yeah, sure. I guess the best way to look at it is that you’re just using their nice, uh, you know, looking, you know, front entrance, if you will, right? to this, maybe not so pleasant looking Blockchain, right?, which is just a bunch of code and so Coinbase is really just a door that you’re walking through to get onto that Blockchain, but it doesn’t change the fact that, um, there’s no really intermediary there.

Casey Stubbs: 10:41

So anyone can access the Blockchain if they can figure out how to access it. If they could code a, a doorway or something like that,

Eric Jansen: 10:49

That’s right. Anybody could download the entire Bitcoin Bockchain at any time. And so if you wanted to download it and just pure into it, you can, if you wanted to download it and become a minor, right, you certainly have the right to do that. The other key feature of it is it’s what they call open source. And so anybody can build on top of the Bitcoin Blockchain and that’s perhaps we’ll touch on this a little later on why there so many other coins today considering bitcoin future value predictions.

Casey Stubbs: 11:19

OK. I think that, that helps me understand a little bit more. I mean, I’m not totally unfamiliar with it. It’s still pretty intense topic and I think that it’s intimidating for a lot of people because there’s so many things that they don’t understand about how it works. And even when you explain it, it’s still can be a little bit of a mystery, I think.

Eric Jansen: 11:42

I agree. It takes a lot of, uh, a lot of effort to, to wrap your brain around it.

Casey Stubbs: 11:50

I want to ask you a couple questions later on about, uh, you know, how you’re helping your clients with cryptocurrency, but before I do that, I want to just hit a few more maybe foundational Bitcoin questions just to try to help the listeners get a little more foundation. Uh, you were discussing mining, uh, for Bitcoin. What is mining and how does that work and who does it?

How To Earn Bitcoin

Eric Jansen: 12:15

Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think the terminology mining is probably the worst possible word to describe what’s physically happening. Uh, I guess Bitcoin itself is probably not the best word either to describe the digital currency because there is no coin right? in Bitcoin’s, its just the ledger entry. And so mining itself is, I think the best way to look at it is it’s really serving two functions, right? The primary function of a minor and a minor is nothing more than an individual or a group of individual. We’re talking about a mining pool that have decided to download the bitcoin blockchain and to confirm transactions that are taking place on that Blockchain in return for potential rewards in the form of transaction fees and Bitcoin. And so what do they physically do? So when we enter a transaction. So if I want to buy or sell or transact in any way with Bitcoin that I have or that they’d like to have, then I will submit a request, if you will, to the Blockchain network. Right?

Eric Jansen: 13:29

And once that request hits the network, which is nothing more than me, you know, think of an email, right? And so if I want to type an email to somebody and I put their address in there and I hit send, I have in a sense just broadcasted that to the person I’m sending it to and now that email is gonna go through a series of steps before it ends up in the desired location. And that’s really what, what minors in a sense are doing is they’re now saying, alright, is that transaction that’s just been broadcast to our network. Um, first off, does Eric actually have those coins that he wants to transact with? Right. Assuming I’m sending or paying somebody with those coins. And how they confirm whether in fact I have that transaction or not, this is the cryptography now is that when I submit that request against is all done, you know, the minute I hit the send button if you will, or the pay button. Then it’s gonna broadcast a, for lack of a better word, a code. And that code is unique to that particular transaction. And it’s a public key in a sense that, that is, is being transaction that I signed through my private key that only I know. And I’ll, I’ll sign it means is I hit the send button, right? And so all these miners now who are scattered throughout world, there are computer systems, if you will, that are connected to the Blockchain networks, are now making these calculations, if you will, um, to determine whether the, um, the coins that I say I have, I actually have. And every 10 minutes, the miners will pull all these transactions that took place in that previous 10 minutes and they’ll attempt to what they call, find a block right in a block there’s just nothing more than every transaction that took place in the last 10 minutes.

Eric Jansen: 15:30

And they compete to see if they can be the first one to solve, if you will, this a mathematical algorithm. And If they do and they saw that algorithm in the sense that now verifies all the transactions that have just taken place in that previous 10 minutes. And then that 10 minutes of transactions is called the block. And that block is then connected to all the previous blocks. And once that’s done, then that transaction is now verified. And so the, and I’m sure that, you know, it’s confusing folks even more, but you know, uh, but the, the key to, to understanding mining is, is number one, that’s what makes the network trustless right? And so I’m not going to a large bank making a deposit that I in turn then use that deposit to pay my electric bill, right? But that money is going to feed through my bank. In Bitcoin, when you’re making a transaction, there is no central authority.

Eric Jansen: 16:39

And so if there is no central authority who you, who is gonna verify all the same things that normally a bank will verify. And who verifies it are all these miners who really, their job, is to make sure that the transactions that take place are valid and it’s expensive because of the electricity, right? That they have to use to run the computers that are making all these calculations, if you will. And so when returned, they’re rewarded with, if they solve the block, if they’re lucky enough to be the first to quote solve that block, the rewarded with it currently 12 and a half Bitcoins. And that is really how it ties together. Um, this whole trustless networker.

Casey Stubbs: 17:33

I see. That’s an interesting topic that we’re gonna dive into here at Finance and Markets uh, in pretty good detail later on in the next month or so were gonna really hit that. So thanks for sharing that. Now, one thing that I think is really on a lot of people’s minds who have not been involved in Bitcoin, especially because of the headlines, is the security of Bitcoin. Uh, there’s been some pretty large, uh, some pretty large thefts, I would say. I’m just reading, ah reading a news article about something that there was like a $70,000,000 Bitcoin theft of last year. And there’s been even bigger ones than that. So would you say that it’s more secure than a credit card or a bank or less secure? And is this something that people should really be concerned about?

Eric Jansen: 18:29

Yeah, it’s a great question. Let me go back for one second to the, to the mining question. Now, there was one thing I wanted to say that, uh, I didn’t, uh, point out and this to me was a, I guess a real eye-opener just helped me to understand it better. And so, you know, we know that Bitcoin is digital money. There is no physical currency, right? We can’t hold it, we can’t really see it. Um, and the thing that always confused me is, you know, this whole concept of, or how does it come into existence, you know, where does this, where did these Bitcoins come from? And so in, in mining, when those folks are verifying those transactions, and when they, win that block, right, we’ve talked about a block is created roughly every 10 minutes and whoever the minor is that or pool of minors that in a sense, one that block right there were the first person to solve the puzzle that allows them to do that. And we mentioned a minute ago, they’re rewarded 12 and a half Bitcoins, right? Um, and that’s had every, every two years it was 50 bitcoins in a 25 bitcoins and now it’s 12 and a half and we’ll keep having every two years.

Eric Jansen: 19:38

In a sense what’s happening those are not really mining they’re putting into circulation, Bitcoins that are already, in a sense, built onto that protocol. right?. And so when, when Bitcoin was created, they built into the software the fact that there’s only gonna be 21,000,000 Bitcoins. All right, that’s it. And so every 10 minutes we’re putting in circulation 12 and a half new ones. And I think that when I learned that, that began to clear up, at least in my head, like, all right, now I get it right there in a sense of not really mining, they’re putting it into circulation Bitcoins that already exists on the, in the software, but it’s controlled release, if you will. Does that make sense?

Casey Stubbs: 20:24

It does, yes. And there is a limit to the number that will be released, correct?

Eric Jansen: 20:30

That’s correct. Twenty, 21,000,000 in total today. There’s a little less than 17,000,000 in circulation and the last one won’t be released until, I believe it’s 2140. So a long time from now.

Casey Stubbs: 20:42

So there was a lot more released on the front end?

Eric Jansen: 20:50

Yeah, well actually when, when Bitcoin first started, right. And I know we’re getting off topic of your, your, your last question, but, so it started in 2009, right? It was in 2008 is when the concept came out, but it really didn’t, didn’t begin until early 2009. And when it began, there was really just 2 folks as you know, notorious Satoshi Nakamoto, right? Who we really don’t know who this individual group of individuals was, that created it. But when he, uh, created the bitcoin protocol and sent the first coins, right? I created the first coins, then there was 50 that were created, right? Because at that time, uh, it was 50 coins that were created every 10 minutes. Um, he sent the first transaction, if you will, to this gentleman called Hal Finney. And so there was two computers, right? That we’re connected to the bitcoin network, but every 10 minutes there was another 50 another Bitcoin is being created and if there’s only two computers connected to the network who are both mining, if you will, right? then as you can imagine, there was a lot of Bitcoin being created and only going to a very small group of folks, right? But as time went on, more and more individuals join the network and it began to obviously spread out the number of folks who are getting that, that Bitcoin. Um, but it started with just 50 bitcoins every 10 minutes.

Casey Stubbs: 22:19

Okay, well, that, that is a, I think useful to know. And now I want to redirect to the security question. There’s been some large hacks, a, is it safer than of banks and credit cards and is this something that people should be concerned about? How much was 1 bitcoin worth in 2009?

Eric Jansen: 22:34

It’s a great question and I think a lot of times people confuse the security of Bitcoin with Bitcoin itself, right? And in, in here’s really how to, how to take a look at that, but you’re absolutley correct. There’s been some, a very large hacks of cryptocurrencies from exchanges. The biggest one was, was mount box right back in 2014, um, I think it was 450,000 Bitcoins, right, were, were stolen, and there’s been some recent ones as recently as a couple of weeks ago. But that is really the, it’s, it’s the exchanges themselves that are being hacked into and what we encourage our clients, if they’re going to get involved in any form of crypto with his Bitcoin, or any other of the cryptocurrencies out there, is to not keep your coins on an exchange, right? What about a new cryptocurrency release? If you keep your coins on an exchange, then those, uh, or digital assets, if you will, then those assets are subject to a hacker, right? Just like a anything else where there’s a centralized control point that they can hack into. So if, in fact you keep your coins and remember you’re not really keeping a coin, you’re really just keeping your key, right? Which key is nothing more than your, your password. So that entry into the ledger that says you actually own those points. So if you keep those safe and hardware wallet or, or even a paper wallet, then they can’t be taken away from you by a hacker. So really isn’t Bitcoin that is not secure, right? It’s like anything else, it’s, it’s whoever’s holding those keys, if you ultimately decide to let them to hold it, that is exposing you potentially if they have poor security, right?

Casey Stubbs: 24:17

Yeah. So, so really that, that hack is no different than say, when Experian get hacked and I get everybody’s credit card information, a database, they see all the keys there, they grab them.

Eric Jansen: 24:34

You know, that’s exactly right. And if you think about a big one is really created right to be this decentralized system, right? To get away from that, right? So we don’t have to count on a digital, a centralized entity controlling my information. Dangerous popped up, right? In a lot of ways, and I think this is what you’re hinting at, it kind of brought us back to doing the same thing, right?

Casey Stubbs: 24:56

Right. So a true Bitcoin enthusiast is not gonna be using these exchanges. They’re gonna do it in a more pure method. And they’re gonna store their Bitcoin a, in a, in a safer way that cannot be hacked.

Eric Jansen: 25:09

That’s right, that may still use an exchange to buy yourself, but the minute their transactions completed, they’ll, they’ll pull their keys back off of there and back into their own secure wallet.

Casey Stubbs: 25:23

So how are you helping your clients get involved in the cryptocurrency markets because they’re absolutely crazy. I mean, they’re just, they’re volatiles. T here’s been massive up moves and massive crashes and I would think that your clients would be a little bit timid about doing that. Is this like, how do you approach that with your clients?

Eric Jansen: 25:45

It’s a great question. So there’s really three things that, that we’re doing as, as, as a firm today. One of the first things, of course, is we needed to, to train our own staff and our own advisors about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and one of the ways that we did that is we gave them, a little bit of, of four cryptos. By giving them these, these, these digital currencies, they’re able to begin to learn, you know, what they are. And so on so far. Then they’re were pretty excited about that because they can watch the ups and downs. The second thing we did is that we also began to accept the Bitcoin as a payment method for financial plans and the reason behind that is to really to demonstrate to folks that look, Bitcoin is a form of payment, just like anything else that you can transact with. And the third thing we we do, and this is more directly to our clients, is we really educate. We don’t recommend any particular coin. We don’t talk about buying, selling or holding. Instead we help them to understand how Bitcoin came into an existence. What are the problems that Bitcoin is trying to solve in the world? and what are all these other coins or tokens that have have since been created?. And how do you distinguish between them and predict bitcoin price in 10 years? You know, what, what makes one different from another. And from that, we then talk about some of the things we’ve been chatting about here and that is how do you, if you were to buy or wanted to buy bBtcoin or any other currency, how do you do it? What’s the best place to do it? Uh, what are the pros and cons of, of, of different exchanges that are out there.

Eric Jansen: 27:28

You know, what do you need to pay attention to when it comes to security, digital walls, hardware, wallets. And so we really are helping them to just understand, um, just this whole concept of Bitcoin. And I think the most important thing there, Casey, that we share with our clients is really kind of how it’s fitting into this massive changes taking place worldwide right now. A lot of people are calling it the fourth industrial revolution rights. Kind of the digitization of, of everything. And if you really think about it, the Bitcoin came about kind of right at the time where we had the financial crisis and kind of the, you know, the fear of, of, of these giant institutions who are centralized locations for, you know, our money. And so on, so forth, and, you know, bitcoin being a decentralized network, um, was probably came out at the exact time that, that people were ready to begin to think about having a more control over the, over their own, uh, you know, money, right? Peer, peer to peer money. And, and I think that’s really what we help them to understand.

Casey Stubbs: 28:39

I see. So where should a, where should listen go to learn more about Bitcoin?

Eric Jansen: 28:48

Yeah, there’s a quite a few places, uh, as I’m sure you can expect, particularly on the Internet, right? Um, but I’ll give you a few that, that we follow and that we tell our clients to follow in terms of websites. A couple of good sites you can go to is Why Bitcoin and it’s the letter ybitcoin.com. Coindesk.com is another great site with a lot of information. In terms of, of, uh, you know, books, the first book I read on the topic was the Internet of Money. Um, there’s two volumes now. I read volume one, uh, by Andreas Antonopoulos and he’s a, uh, just a fantastic speaker and he’s been around for a long time talking about Bitcoin and Block chain. The other one’s Digital Ggold. If you want to get a history of, of kind of Bitcoin from its inception and all the folks that were involved in its creation, Digital Gold by Nathaniel Popper is a great book to read how to. If you’re a twitter person, uh, folks that I follow and I follow quite a few, but some of the big ones, again, follow Andreas Antonopoulos, the gentleman that wrote the book I just mentioned, uh, by talent of uterine. He’s the Etherium founder, Charlie Lee. There’s like CoinGecko, a website you can follow as well as a good website to go to, to learn more about cryptocurrencies, but the different types of currencies that are out there. So there’s some, some places that I would probably start,

Casey Stubbs: 30:16

Well that’s some, some good research. So why do they call all of these coins a crypto currency? What is the meaning behind that?

Eric Jansen: 30:28

Yeah, sure. And so, you know, a lot of folks, um, I guess think Bitcoin and as I did is kind of that first cryptocurrency. But in reality, uh, there were coins that were being created back in the nineties and the whole thought behind creating cryptocurrencies, right? really started with these, you know, group of programmers, right? They call them Cypherpunks, right? And these are kind of a crazy name, but these were individuals who were, uh, programmers who really wanted to find a way to add more privacy to the transactions that were taking place. Right? So here we are getting much more digitized in the world. Um, you know, a lot more of our data was being exposed, right? The great thing about the Internet as we can, you know, we can do a lot of things now, we were never able to do before. The bad thing about the internet is that, um, so many people know everything about us, really think about what just happened with facebook ride in and kind of uh, what, what, what is going on?

Eric Jansen: 31:30

They are relative to the sharing of our personal information. And so these cryptographers, if you will, we’re trying to figure out a way that we can spend our money without people knowing a what I’m buying, who I bought it from, and to bring back some privacies that we use to have. And so they experimented with these various forms of digital assets over the years is from 1990, you know, through what we now know as Bitcoin in 2009 with this whole concept of cryptography, which is being able to transact, use your money without having an intermediary to store your personal data and bitcoin price history chart. And you know, having us have to trust that individual to not only protect our data but to not share that data. So really the, the word cryptocurrency came about through how the Blockchain, which is now what we’re using is secured. And so cryptography is a fancy word for um, you know, coding if you will ride it. It’s a, it’s a code that they put on your transaction. This is your private and public keys that we talked about earlier that only, you know. Right. And this is the private key and that’s what makes it cryptographically secure.

Casey Stubbs: 32:56

Well, that is a pretty interesting explanation. I don’t think I would have really been able to figure that out just so I’m glad that, uh, that you were to explain it to us. Uh, Eric, I want to thank you so much for being on the show. This is Eric Jansen from Aspen Cross Wealth Management. Eric, can you just tell the listeners how they can get in touch with you if they’re interested in, in, uh, any of your services?

Eric Jansen: 33:25

Sure. I think the best way to do that is to visit our website at www.aspencross.com

Casey Stubbs: 33:33

All right. And, uh, we’ll be posting that link below this episode. So if you’re listening or viewing this on youtube or seeing it on our website, you can just click that link and find Aspen Cross Wealth Management. All right, thank you again, Eric.

Eric Jansen: 33:52 

Thanks a lot, Casey. I appreciate the time

Outro: 34:03

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