How To Turn Your Passion Into Passive Income With Alternative Investments | Cashflow Hacking Ep #6 Kirk Chisholm

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How To Turn Your Passion Into Passive Income With Alternative Investments | Cashflow Hacking Ep #6 Kirk Chisholm

Kirk Chisholm, the Wealth Manager and Principal of Innovative Wealth Advisory Group, joins us on the podcast to discuss alternative investments and how to turn your passion into passive income in retirement. Kirk has over 19 years of experience in providing wealth management services, and has built his career around helping investors find suitable investments for their estate outside of the mainstream. Kirk shares his story with Casey, and gives some incredable insight on how to start better saving for retirement today!

Video Version Of The Podcast

Resources & People Mentioned 

Podcast Transcript

Intro: 00:11

This is the Finance & Markets Cashflow Hacking Podcast, streaming to you live teaching the methods behind unlocking long-term wealth. Your host Casey Stubbs.

Casey Stubbs: 00:25

This is Casey Stubbs with the cash flow hacking podcast. And today our guest is Kirk Chisholm, the wealth manager and principal of the Innovative Advisory Group. Thanks for being on the show today, Kirk.

Kirk Chisholm: 00:39

Yeah, thanks for having me on. Casey.

Casey Stubbs: 00:42

So Kirk, uh, can you give us a little background about yourself? Tell us about, you know, who you are, how you got involved with a advising in the finance industry.

Kirk Chisholm: 00:54

Yeah. So yeah, when I was in college it was the late nineties and uh, it was, I found it, the market’s very exciting, and uh, want to go into that as a field. So I started out at UBS Paine Webber actually at the time, its UBS now. And it was interesting because I was in a big transitional period in the industry where you’re just, you’re just transitioning from a transactional business where everybody gets paid a lot of money for transactions to, or a fee-based model, which I got it right at the beginning of that. So it was, it was a great time for me and interestingly enough, I started December of 99, which of course is probably the very last point you could get into the bull market without experiencing any of it. So, ah, you know, pretty much the next few years were challenging because the markets were a challenging period, but what it really taught me was the value of risk management.

Kirk Chisholm: 01:50

So I think it was actually fortuitous that I started then instead of midnight, it’s what people thought the market’s only went up. And then subsequently I went over to Smith Barney when they were Smith Barney and then went off on my own. And we started this, the firm I’m at now, Innovative Advisor Group 2008. And really the reason for doing so was multiple actually, multiple reasons, but one of the main reasons was we didn’t really, we wanted to invest outside of the stock market. We wanted to find alternative investments that made sense in light of the things that happened in 2008. So we’re really looking for ways to find good investments that weren’t necessarily securities. So, you know, we do advise on traditional securities as well, but we saw a big need in the alternative asset space, so really created our firm to address that need and really help with true diversification within portfolios, which, given the markets where they are now, the diversification is a, uh, let’s just, let’s just say this is not entirely diversified when you’re looking at the different assets, the traditional markets, so we want to find things with low correlation. So that’s really one of the reasons why we started our firm and we really wanted to, you know, provide full transparency for our clients. So that was another, another big reason for doing it.

Casey Stubbs: 03:25

Now you were saying in your intro that you got started right at December of 99 and I actually remember that I think you and I are probably close to the same age. Uh, I actually got started at that time maybe a little bit before that, but did you experience a painful investing experience at that point? Did you get in and as soon as you got in you got hit pretty hard and I was. Did you have any experience with that?

Kirk Chisholm: 03:53

Well, fortunately, no, so, you know, I was just out of college so I had some money but it wasn’t, I wasn’t investing in tech stocks same way that other people were. But the interesting part was because I started in basically 2000, I didn’t have any clients, I had to start from scratch, you know, you don’t come in with clients who come out with nothing and you build up your, build up, your, your practice with different clients. So I didn’t experience a lot of what other people had to the same degree or definitely people who still want to invest in tech stocks in 2001. Um, and because I was new, I wasn’t biased by the prior 10 years that everything goes up constantly. You know, tech stocks will continue to go to the moon even though they have no earnings, I was biased by any of that. So I, you know, cause I didn’t have the experience of the, of the constant upside.

Kirk Chisholm: 04:54

So the benefit that that gave me was perspective and perspective that’s hard to see in this industry because you know, look at the last 10 years, the markets have only pretty much gone up and if you’ve been in the business for the last 10 years, you don’t have the perspective of what a bear market looks like or whatever it looks like. Um, I’ve seen two bear markets and two bull markets so I know what they look like. I have the perspective of, of you know, looking at risk management as, as a priority instead of looking at rewards and maybe looking at risk, which is what most of the industry looks at it. So we, we, we take a very different perspective when it comes to investing.

Casey Stubbs: 05:36

And, and I think that’s a great point because really you can hear about something but you don’t learn about it really until you actually experience. At least that’s been my knowledge. I mean I try to learn from other people and learn from the hard knocks that they’ve taken and learned from other people’s wisdom. So I don’t have to learn everything myself, but seems to me most of my real learning comes through experience. And so I think right now in our current environment, we have a 10 year bull market, we have a lot of people that don’t even understand the possibility of a bear market.

Kirk Chisholm: 06:11

Yeah. And you raise a great point cause I’m a student of history and I like reading economic history at just history in general because it teaches you a lot. But the reality is that unless you’ve experienced it, you don’t really understand it and you could read about it, you know, you can read about the seventies, the eighties, all the stuff that happened there and the craziness with inflation and interest rates, you can read about that, but you don’t really know what that was like unless you were there. And I, I, I kind of, you can kind of look at this and I don’t want to bring up politics where you can look at politics the same way. Like if you’ve experienced it, you kinda have a feel for what’s going on. But if you read about it, there’s so many different factors involved. You just don’t know the reality of what was happening.

Kirk Chisholm: 06:59

You just know what was written down. So in reading about, you know, economic history of the stock markets, what was it like to experience some of the big crashes? I don’t know. I mean I know what 2008 felt like, I know what 2003 felt like, but each time that the market goes into this, this kind of uncertain period, it’s always different. You know, if you look at the flash crashes, I mean that’s, that’s not something that we necessarily experienced in the past, but now we’re experiencing them in or the market goes down and it happens quicker. You know, it doesn’t take three years to go down. It might have been 2008. It happened really quickly. The next time it happens it might be even quicker. So you, you don’t really know until you’re in the experience what you’re gonna, how you’re gonna react. So trader friend of mine talks about this a lot and how the psychology of investing is so important. And that it’s, it’s really not a battle against the markets as a battle against yourself because logically you can know all the information.

Kirk Chisholm: 08:08

You could know what you have to do, but when you get in the situation, you have no idea how you’re going to react and it’s really important to not only understand history and understand how things happen and why they happen, but also you have to understand how you operate internally because without that you could have the best, the best blueprint you know, on paper, but as soon as soon as things started happening, your, your psychology takes over. And in many people, the human psychology is, will actually harm your investing skills because it’s, you know our human nature is almost the exact opposite of what you should be doing the best thing. So I think that’s really important.

Casey Stubbs: 08:51

I think you’re right about that because if fear kicks in, people make irrational decisions in fear, you know, the market makes us strong move and they start doing stuff that they probably shouldn’t do because they’re not using logic or reasoning for their decisions. They’re basing it in fear. And, um, I’ve definitely been in that situation where I’ve made a lot of bad decisions based on fear. But now I look, go back and I’m trying to look at it, say, OK, I’m gonna do a better job on that. And as I go along now I’m gonna change my decision making process so that I’d do it differently rather than letting emotion run things because that’s usually a bad idea. Also, your point about things moving faster is a great point also because I think that uhm, just, with our technology and the way society is and culture things are just happening so fast right now. The booms are happening fast, the bus are happening fast and so people just have to invest a little differently and react differently than they would in the past. I have a question based on what you said about you like to read economic history, do you have any good economic books that you could recommend for the listeners if someone else hadn’t similar interests?

Kirk Chisholm: 10:16

That’s Pandora’s box right there. I got a whole bookshelf full of books that, uh, that are great. I think the challenge books, I don’t know if there’s really a one size fits all book for everyone. There are really good books with about certain topics. Uh, you know, I remembered in college I read, I think it was Burton Malkiel’s, Random Walk Down Wall Street, that was a great generalist book about different aspects of the market, market history. I enjoyed reading that. But I mean there are so many good books out there that I could recommend. It would be easier if I could just say it’s about this topic. You should, you should read this book, that’s the best general book I would recommend. I mean, pretty much anything written about Warren Buffet is great, but I will mention this one point because I think it’s really important to really kind of play off your, what we were just talking about.

Kirk Chisholm: 11:19

Is that what’s really important about investing is not whether Warren Buffett’s approach or Ray Dahlio approach or Carl Icahn or any of these other people. It’s not about whether their approach is better or worse than someone else’s. The most important thing is what approach works best for you and for your investor psychology. So I love reading about Warren Buffet, but I’m not Warren Buffet and I’m not gonna try to invest like him, so you know, it’s good to learn these things, but in reality we’re all different and we all have different styles and what works effectively for me may not be effective for you, just based on how your, your mind works. So, uhm plus Warren Buffet, you know, pretty much runs an insurance company which gives us all a disadvantage but that’s a totally different story. Um, so I think, you know, depending on what the interests are, because different books, I mean I do a lot with options, there’s good books on that. Speaking of Ray Dahlio, actually, he wrote a good book recently called Principles, which really has less to do with markers but more to do with other things

Casey Stubbs: 12:32

Running a business. I just finished that book. I thought it was fantastic.

Kirk Chisholm: 12:36

Yeah, I have not finished it yet, but I’ve heard him speak a number. I have the book right here. I just have heard him speak a number of times about the book so, some of the things he talks about are, are things that I’ve, I’ve for a long time really, really felt the same way and it’s nice to hear it in a more precise format. So that’s also a good book.

Casey Stubbs: 12:59

Now you mentioned that because there’s a lot of successful methods out there and there’s been some really successful people, like some of the ones you mentioned, Warren Bretford or Carl Icahn, Ray Dahlio value that we’re not those people. And so we should do what’s comfortable for us or what fits for us. Um, how do you address that with clients because you don’t want it to tell them, OK, this is how I do it. This is Kirk, you know, you have to do it my way. Um, how do you find the right fit for the right person?

Kirk Chisholm: 13:32

Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. So I think if, if clients are doing it themselves, that’s one approach. And really clients hire us to do it for them. They’re not hiring us to go trade their own accounts and pay us fees for nothing. I mean, they’re really hiring us to manage the money for them. I mean, there are some clients that take, you know, somewhat of an active role in, uh, you know, we’re, we’re pretty much the sounding board for them. Um, you know, we have some really smart investors we work with who are probably more capable than me, but they use us as a sounding board because we, we play a very specific role for them where were the devil’s advocate. You know, we challenge their ideas, challenged their thesis and that makes the better investors. But most investors, we, we manage it for them. So really it’s, it comes down to my investor psychology for the clients.

Kirk Chisholm: 14:28

Now that being said, my role is challenging on so many different levels. So one, one level is, you know, we have to manage money for our clients when we have to do a good job. Another level is the clients want us to do a good job, but of course the markets are not perfect. They do go up and they do go down. That’s the reality of, of any investment but clients don’t psychologically gel with that. They want it to go up and when it goes down, you know, they’re looking for answers and looking for scalps. Um, so, you know, it’s really, it’s really hard for the average investor to understand how markets work without understanding how they work. You know, there are a lot of investors could pair, you know, your portfolio that’s invested bonds, the SP500 well that’s not really an accurate comparison, but they just don’t know any better because they’re not experts.

Kirk Chisholm: 15:27

That’s why they hire us. So there’s a really a huge disconnect with, uh, any, any one of my profession and the client because they, clients have expectations, they have friends who manage their friends managed money and they’re, you know, maybe they’re managing to get themselves and their friend just made 10 times his money in bitcoin and now everybody’s, they’re telling everybody about it and everybody’s saying, well, I’ve got to compare you to bitcoin will not make it 10 times your money last year. You know, there’s, you know, that’s the FOMO aspects. So there’s all the psychology of investing is fascinating. And so to kind of simplify your, your question, what I do is I have a strategy that we employ with our clients and it primarily is a strategy that works well for my psychology because you know about managing money, it needs priorities for B to b, you know, to work well with it.

Kirk Chisholm: 16:28

So it has to sync with my investor psychology, but it also works well with the client cycle. So really are what we’re. I look at it as we’re trying to solve a problem. The problem is not how can I open form the market that’s not, that’s not my problem. My problem is how can I not lose money for clients and how can I get similar performance to the that’s, that’s the problem I’m trying to solve and consider in the markets where they are now. We’ve found some solutions that work with that. Of course you can’t lose no money but downside is really minimal. So that’s how we’re, we’re looking at portfolios. We’re not gonna outperform the SP on the outside but on the downside we will. And you have to understand, um, what the strategy is that works with you and you also have to understand the strengths, weaknesses of the strategy. So I know the strengths and weaknesses of my strategy. There is no holy grail. There’s nothing that works all the time. And every market, you just have to understand where the weak points are and where the strengths are and just try to make sure that they align with your own investor psychology.

Casey Stubbs: 17:43

That’s a pretty good way to look at it and to try to help people, uh, get an understanding on what fits for them. I think you mentioned one term that I didn’t quite catch in that last answer. And you said when you’re talking about psychology, you said FOMO. Um, what did you mean by that?

Kirk Chisholm: 18:03

Fear of missing out

Casey Stubbs: 18:07

Fear of missing out. OK. Like Bitcoin for example, everybody wanted to jump in and get the money that was happening in that marriage.

Kirk Chisholm: 18:14

Yeah, I mean, fear of missing out is a huge challenge for investors. Um, you know, it’s, it’s like, it’s the same problem with gamblers. So they go to, they go to Vegas and they love telling everybody about the times they want, but they don’t tell about the 50 other times they went lost.

Casey Stubbs: 18:14


Kirk Chisholm: 18:32

So, you know, Joe and Susie Six Pack or telling everybody about all the money that made bitcoin last year and they didn’t tell you that it was only like a thousand dollars and they didn’t tell you that they lost 50,000 and other investments. They’re just everybody. It’s this. It has no, I mean it’s not just investing. It’s everything right up with the Joneses. I got to have a house, a car like everybody else. It’s, it’s a, it’s a really dangerous psychology, but a lot of, a lot of people fall prey to it.

Casey Stubbs: 19:04

Yeah, and I think one way that you can help yourself get over that is to talk about your failures and that’s kind of painful, but I think it, it helps you get a more complete picture and look at your failure, not dwell on it and just say, oh, woh is me, but say, OK, I made these mistakes. Now what am I gonna do now to fix them? How am I going to do better next time?

Kirk Chisholm: 19:32

Yeah. I mean you don’t learn from your, from your wins you learned from your losses.

Casey Stubbs: 19:36

Yeah. And keep going and say, OK, I’m just gonna keep moving forward and a lot of times the losses will take people out and they just quit rather than using it as a learning experience, which fortunately for me, I’ve been able to bounce back a couple times. You had mentioned that one of your strategies is you’re looking at securities, but you’re also looking at some best alternative investments or alternative assets. What, uh, what exactly do you mean by alternative assets?

List of Alternative Investments

Kirk Chisholm: 20:11

So that’s a great question. The term and alternative assets or alternative investment vehicles is not really defined ah, it’s says defined as the term financial advisor, which also was a meaningless term but uhm, so the alternative assets to Wall Street has traditionally looked at alternative investments as hedge funds or private equity or managed futures. That’s traditionally how they’ve looked at that. That’s the term that they’ve used. Now that hedge funds are more mainstream, they’re considering alternative investments, some sort of alternative strategy. So a strategy that doesn’t just go along, but it goes long and short of it may have some other tweaks to it, but they use the terms to define liquid. They call them liquid alts are liquid alternatives. I don’t use it that way. I look at alternatives as something that is not in the traditional realm, so you’re not investing in securities directly or through a thought and you’re not, um, you know, stocks, bonds and mutual funds, no hedge funds, private equity none of that, anything that you can access through Wall Street.

Kirk Chisholm: 21:23

I consider on the traditional side now. The alternative side or things like real estate or private company stock or tax liens or horses or raw land, you know, private mortgages, gold, physical gold, things like that. Crypto currencies. So there are a lot of different assets out there that are not traditional. You know, when I say alternative, there’s, there’s nothing better or worse than the alternatives. I mean they’re not better, they’re not worse. They’re just different. So I get this a lot and people ask, well, are alternative assets risky? Well, I guess the question is, is World Congress ski? Is Enron risky? Is Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns are they risky? You know, risk is not really defined in that way. It’s defined as the individual investment. So you know, you could look at investing in GE versus investing in a rental property that is down the street from you. Well, you can touch it, you can feel it, you know, the numbers, you know the renters, like it’s a very simple investment versus GE, which is highly complex. So that’s how I define alternatives. Um, there is no real definition, but that’s how I would define it.

Casey Stubbs: 22:47

Now, during a bear market, do you think alternative investments hold their value better or do they increase? When I say bear market, I’m talking about stock market. Would you, is it possible to see types of alternative investments go up during a bear market?

Kirk Chisholm: 23:05

Yeah. So it’s interesting. It’s an interesting question because the stock market in the economy are not the same. People think that the SEC. So, but they’re not. So technically you could have a stock market that goes into a price recession or bear market and you could have the economy going just fine. That probably wouldn’t last forever, but you know, that is, there is a difference there. Um, I don’t know that they would hold up better or worse. So one of the interesting parts about alternatives as they tend to be more illiquid. So stocks are liquid, you know, you could buy, sell from 9:30 in the morning until four in the afternoon. You could, you know, you can get a trade anytime you want or you can get a price for it with a piece of rental property. There’s not that kind of liquidity might take you 30 days, it might take you 12 months to get a buyer for it and you could always get a buyer for it, but the price you want getting a buyer for it, that’s a, you know, that’s a whole different conversation.

Risk Management Education

Kirk Chisholm: 24:17

So if you want $2,000,000 in the market, it will take you a long time to sell it, if you’re willing to, if it’s worth a million dollars, you’re willing to part with it for a hundred grand, you could part with it probably today. So you know when you get to illiquid markets, you have this issue of liquidity, which is a double edged sword. So on one hand, if you’re the buyer in an illiquid market, then you could potentially get a better price because if you’re not in a rush, you can wait for a good deal and you could get a deal at a rate that, that you’re comfortable with.

Kirk Chisholm: 24:58

Let’s say somebody has to sell, they have to sell it in the next 10 days or x, y, z is gonna happen, then they’re gonna take any price they get. And if you have a ready patient buyer who’s saying, OK, I’ll take it 50 percent off right now if you want to sell it. With the advantage to the buyer, if they’re patient is, they can get a good price and the seller is disadvantaged if they were in a hurry. So it really comes down to the level of patients at a time table for them to do the transaction in regards to the risk management process. But you could, you could definitely benefit from, uh, from the illiquidity as well as you know, obviously it’s a negative in some ways too.

Casey Stubbs: 25:43

I like the idea of these alternative investments. It’s not something that you hear a lot when you’re reading the news or reading things online or in print because it’s probably not real attractive so it doesn’t get a lot of attention. If I was interested in looking up some information, is there any good sources that you have on, on how to educate yourself about some of these alternative investments?

Kirk Chisholm: 26:08

Yeah. I wish I give you an easy answer to that. Well actually, I put together a free report for your listeners. It’s the Top 75 Alternative Investments that we’ve come up with. So it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a good list and give people some ideas of things they could think about for alternatives when it comes to actually getting detailed information about each of them, that’s um, that’s more labor intensive. So I’ll give an example. Let’s take the topic tax liens. It’s an area that very few people understand or even know about and it’s always been my favorite asset class. Not so much recently because the yields are so low, but if you remove that from the equation and everything else is very appealing but to find out about tax liens, you either have to find a really good up-to-date book or you have to read, you know, the general law of each state to figure out process and how it works.

Kirk Chisholm: 27:11

So the downside is you have to learn all those risk management tools. The upside is, it’s a big hurdle for people to learn so people don’t want to learn, so it just makes it a fewer buyer’s market. So you have some advantage there. But the other asset classes, each one’s individual like take crypto currencies, we can’t wanting to know about them. All these are different. So I think it really just comes down to, um, my, my general rule of thumb for investors. This, you should invest in what you know and what you’re an expert of. If you don’t know anything about crypto currencies, then don’t try to be an expert. If you want to be an expert, that’s fine, but don’t do it willy nilly. Don’t just decide to show up and saying, I have to put some money in bitcoin because it went up last year. Um, same thing with horses. I mean, we have a client who makes over a hundred percent turns a year on horses, but that’s his profession.

Kirk Chisholm: 28:08

He does. He does a really good job at it. I would not expect a random person off the street to invest in horses. It’s silly and I think that’s how people have to really look at their investments is what am I good at, what is my level of expertise and how can I use that expertise to, in the alternative space. I’ll give you a really good example of this. So we were talking to this doctor who is expert in, forget what it’s called radiology, but basically MRI equipment. Um, and you know, there was this hospital he knew that needed MRI equipment and couldn’t afford it. So what he did is he bought the MRI equipment inside his retirement account and then leased it to the hospital. So he knew that. He knew that he knew how the equipment works, do the hospitals need. So you knew all these things and he put his expertise to work and he made really good returns on his money. Now I wouldn’t try to do that. I know nothing about any of that and I would rather see him do something like that than invest in Bitcoin or he knows nothing about it. Right. So I think that’s the most important thing is best in your area of expertise or is Peter Lynch said, invest in what you know

Casey Stubbs: 29:22

And if you don’t know a whole lot, you start researching and figure it out. I liked the, I think that was a great answer to the question because you said you provide, will provide a 75 alternative investment list to the listeners. So I’ll be able to put a link to that and you’ll underneath this podcast and you’ll be able to deliver that guide to them.

Kirk Chisholm: 29:48

Yup, I will put that in there. It’s actually like give you the link here. It’s

Casey Stubbs: 30:00

Excellent. Well that, I think that’s a great resource and I will personally take a look at that because I’m definitely intrigued in alternative assets and investments. It’s pretty interesting. Um, so, uh, Kirk, uh, there’s a ton of other things we could talk about, but we are getting low on time, so I just wanna ask you a couple questions about your businesses. So what is the specific service that you’re targeting right now? Is it financial advisor, but what is the specific market that you’re servicing?

Kirk Chisholm: 30:35

Sure. So we’re, we’re a wealth management firm. We’re an independent RA so we don’t get paid commission out of broker dealer. We’re fully transparent. So what we do is, you know, just like most wealth management firms, we’ve managed it as traditional assets. We do financial planning and other, other sort of life planning that people counter. And one of the areas that we’re really, really well known for is our expertise with alternative assets held inside retirement accounts. So self-directed IRAs is what people call them and that, that is an area that very few people understand or even know that exists.

Casey Stubbs: 31:21

So. So I just want to break up that cause it is really unique, I think. So that would be like owning a horse and doing investments in horses and actually putting that inside of a retirement account.

Kirk Chisholm: 31:36

Yes. So if you wanted to buy a horse in your IRA, you could do that.

Casey Stubbs: 31:43

Wow. That’s amazing.

Kirk Chisholm: 31:46

Yeah, you could invest in virtually anything inside your retirement account, which most people think it’s just stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. You can invest in virtually anything except for collectibles and life insurance. So pretty much anything else you can invest up. So you know, you can invest in a raw land or horse or you know, physical gold or all these other things. I mean, you’re really the limitations is your imagination. We’ve seen some pretty interesting stuff over the years.

Casey Stubbs: 32:18

OK, well, sorry for interrupting. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding that correctly.

Kirk Chisholm: 32:26

Um, yeah. So really that’s kind of our expertise. That’s a service that we provide actually because really aren’t other people doing this with the alternative assets side retirement accounts. We actually work with other advisors as well so they can offer to their clients. Um, so it’s, it’s a pretty, it’s a pretty deep, deep topic is probably a podcast on its own, but it’s, um, it’s something that I think is worthwhile for more people to know to vote. So that’s, uh, that’s more or less the simple version of what we do.

Casey Stubbs: 33:03

Well, that’s really good. I’m actually gonna write that down because I’m, if I ever have any questions about that, I’m gonna come back to you. All right. Well, uh, if our listeners would be interested in getting your financial advice services, how would they get in touch with you?

Kirk Chisholm: 33:25

Sure. So the easiest way to get in touch with me, if you go to our website, If you go to the contact page and you just backslash contact, you can reach out to us there. You can also find us on social media, various channels as well. But yeah, our website is really, really helpful for a lot of people, especially people that want to do with themselves. We have a lot of information there for those types of, uh, if you want to reach out to us, you could, uh, you could just reach out to a contact page, are pretty easy to find.

Casey Stubbs: 34:03

I’m also going to put all of those links and access to that guide underneath the, uh, the podcast for those of you that are listening in online so they’ll be able to click through. Kirk, Thank you so much for being on the show today. It’s been great having you.

Kirk Chisholm: 34:20

Yeah, thanks for having me on Casey. That’s a lot of fun.

Casey Stubbs: 34:23

OK, great. Thank you.

Outro: 34:29

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